Manchester United scored twice in stoppage time on Sunday, drew 4-4 with Aston Villa, and go into the international break 18th in the Premier League. That is their lowest position after at least 10 matches in 40 years, and they will now spend longer in the relegation zone than at any point since 1986.
The afternoon was not simply bad. It was confusing. Supporters booed in the second half and roared in the 96th minute when Patrick Dorgu headed the equaliser. Players sprinted away to celebrate a point, then applauded the fans who had stayed behind when the game looked lost at 4-2. Nobody seemed sure whether it had been a rescue or a disaster.
A banner, and a full-back jeered off
Shortly before kick-off a banner appeared from the second tier of the Stretford End reading "We don't want a new stadium, we want new owners". When Diogo Dalot was substituted in the 66th minute the cheers that greeted his number turned into catcalls as he left the pitch. Joshua Zirkzee, who got the same treatment during a game against Newcastle two years ago and who scored United's third on Sunday, was on the bench to give him a hug.
The hostility around the club, driven as much by ticket prices and how supporters feel they are treated as by results, is the sharpest it has been since Sir Alex Ferguson left in 2013.
Carrick refuses to walk
Michael Carrick was asked directly by Sky Sports whether he would step away. "That's not going to happen," he said. Told there would clearly be conversations with the hierarchy, he replied: "Will there? You're telling me what you think. I'm quite clear what direction the club needs to go in. It's got to win games."
United have not won a league match since beating Ipswich on 30 August. They have conceded 15 goals in their last five, have conceded inside two minutes in three of their last seven, and were 2-0 down after three minutes and 40 seconds on Sunday, the earliest they have ever trailed by two in a Premier League game. Carrick's own reading was narrower. "We're just making it too difficult for ourselves at certain times," he said. "There's not a theme to it, apart from these one-off moments are catching us out."
The decision sits upstairs
Chief executive Omar Berrada and director of football Jason Wilcox watched from Old Trafford. Sir Jim Ratcliffe and the Glazers are weighing the same question from further away: whether fighting back from two down three times in a week counts as evidence of a team still playing for its manager, or as evidence of a team that keeps needing to.
Roy Keane, speaking to Sky Sports, landed somewhere in between. "On the one hand it's dreadful to give up four goals at home. But they kept going, so you have to give them a little bit of praise." Dion Dublin told BBC Sport the players left the field looking like they had lost. Dorgu more or less agreed. "I don't feel happy, we are in a bad situation," he said. "Everyone needs to look at themselves and ask if they are doing enough."
Next up is Liverpool away on 22 November. Unai Emery, himself touted as a possible successor and furious at his own side's collapse, offered United's supporters some reassurance anyway: "They have the capacity, power, players and everything to overcome this situation."
Context: Manchester United are 18th after 10 Premier League games, their lowest position at this stage in 40 years. They have not won in the league since 30 August, have conceded 15 goals in five matches, and visit Liverpool on 22 November. Michael Carrick says he will not resign.
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